In Theory
Back when I got engaged in 2003, it was three days before my fiance called his parents to inform them of our new status. He didn't "share the happy news" or even just tell them; he "broke it to them, gently," because, well, it's a long story, but let's just say it wasn't exactly the sparkling moment of family togetherness I'd imagined.
This week was my company holiday party, and it seemed that everyone had it on their minds to ask what Simon and I had planned for 2008 along the marriage/baby track. (Now that it's all imminent(ish), I'm not so hurt/offended by the presumptions as I once was, thank goodness.) Since it's turned out that both of us are terrible secret-keepers when it comes to the baby thing (we can totally keep the secrets of others, though; tell us yours!), our responses tended to fall on the spectrum somewhere between "Soon!" and "Give us twenty minutes in the broom closet and we'll be that much closer, bow chicka bow-wow." (Technically, according to the doctor who told me I could eat sushi, we're supposed to wait three months for my body to recover, but, ah, yeah, she forgot to give me the chastity belt to go along with that order, so we'll see what happens...)
When my awesome boss asked that night, "So are you going to get married? Have kids? What?" I confessed that yes, both, but maybe the latter before the former, depending on how everything falls into place. His response was, "Well, there's nothing wrong with that! Congratulations! You'll be great!" and god, it was so nice to hear that because most people--even our well-meaning parents, even some of you well-meaning Internets (although most of you are wise enough not to say it out loud)--would prefer we officially make it official before bringing any children into the family.
And I would too. In theory. But I'd also like a lot of things in theory. I'd like to have been more of a partygirl during my prime partying years. I'd like to have lived out of a backpack for a year somewhere exotic. I'd like to have met Simon ten years earlier and under entirely different circumstances. But the reality is that I'm just not the partygirl type, not the gypsy-life type, not the type who could have made a success out of a relationship with Simon back before I'd learned so much about myself and about how to be in a successful relationship. (Plus, he had long hair then, which, ICK.) In theory, it would be fun to be a different person sometimes, but in reality I'm just me--a studious homebody who is lucky to be with Simon at all. So, if it happens that I get married with a big fat belly or a babe in arms, so be it. Que sera sera.
Yes, I get the logic behind wondering why if we'll get married eventually we don't just do it before we procreate. I've constructed that logic in my own head many a time, believe me: it makes more sense that way, it's more convenient that way, it's what everyone else does. But recently I just haven't felt like it's that big of a deal anymore. I don't really want a maternity or breast-feeding-friendly wedding dress (mostly to avoid the hassle and the gossip), but aside from that, a wedding at this point is really just a celebratory party because the Committment has already been made. (p.s. We're not religious, so making it official to a higher power is irrelevant.)
Besides, we've been out of order since the beginning: between the two of us, our relationship history goes engagement, marriage, homeownership, engagement, break-up, divorce, homeownership. After all that, does it really matter if the next two steps are "marriage, kids" rather than "kids, marrriage"? It doesn't matter to me and it doesn't matter to him, and since we're the only two who matter, what's the big deal?
But, oh, it does matter to other people. And some of those people matter to us. And it is a big deal. So what's a girl to do when she's in love with a people-pleaser who's lukewarm about marriage as a whole but is herself a fan of marriage as a whole but has one hell of a contrary streak? Elope and avoid the wedding issue altogether? Send out invitations enclosed with a lengthy essay on the whys and wherefores of this particular matrimonial union? Start playing the high-stakes lottery because I'm so cheap that the only way I'm going to spend money on a wedding is if I have millions of other dollars to spend on things for the baby? Buy a ring from a street vendor, take Simon's (beautiful) last name via DMV paperwork, and feed each other a slice of chocolate cake in front of a photographer because, when it gets down to it, those are the only real hangups that remain for me because, in my mind, we are already a family?
In theory I wish it were simpler than all this, but in reality, we wouldn't be where we are today if we couldn't handle complications. Nothing has been simple. Nothing has been conventional. And nothing has meant more than getting to this point and knowing it's all been worth it. I wouldn't trade any of it for the world. Well, maybe for that winning lotto ticket, a slice of chocolate cake, and a chance to finally be on the tossing end of a bouquet...
wow! well said.
onwards ho!
Regardless of the order of things - I wish you all the best in babies and marriage, or marriage and babies, or whatever. The commitment is the important thing, thus you have everything you need for a family.
I wish you the absolute best, I really do. I'm excited for you.
I actually don't think it's anyone's business, as long as it's cleared up between the two of you. The only (and I really mean, the only) reason to make it an issue is if it's really and truly that important to *you* (or your partner, and not so much to you), then your partner should be willing to bend, assuming it really doesn't mean that much to him (or her).
A baby is actually a much bigger deal than marriage, with the ease of divorce these days, you can just cut ties on a whim, easily. But with a baby? Oh a baby. To some degree, you're bound for life, no matter what the fate of the relationship.
Life is about choices. If we all did the same things, WOW what a boring flipping world this would be, right?!
Marriage before babies/babies before marriage - this does not matter. If there is a loving kind hearted caring relationship that withstand anything (and surely yours can because it just did...)than do it how ever you want to and those other people with their "opinions" can take a flying leap (I know these are important people that you all love so I mean that flying leap thing in the kindest of ways...)
EXACTLY. Thank you, Jonna.
It is absolutely up to the two of you, but you've played the Internet game long enough to know that exposing yourself (tee hee) opens the door for rude, snarky comments from people who think they know something. Nobody knows anything.
My wife and I got married and then had kids, but life is just as crazy had she given birth on the moon. Besides, because of some of the things we did (tons of times in various locations and ways) before we got married, the order could have very easily been reversed. I think one thing that is of tantamount importance when it comes to responsible breeding is commitment. Both of you certainly appear to have that (not to mention the house-buying). Your kids will, when they're older, think you are really cool parents.
I would grab Simon and whisk away to Las Vegas for an utterly decadent week of hot desert sun, gambling, shows, spa treatments, and wonderful dinners—a massive celebration of the childfree lifestyle before the fantastic, amazing, much-loved baby comes along and totally ruins ALL YOUR FUN—and casually get married while you're at it. And maybe get some big-ass tattoos. Wedding out of the way, baby potentially conceived in a Mandalay hot tub, everyone wins!
Of course, maybe I'm just craving an adults-only trip to Las Vegas
right about now.
Mike and I were together more than three years before we got married and lived together for two years before the wedding. The endless stream of "whenareyougoingtogetmarried" was annoying and, really, thoughtless. As if that was what was stopping us, people asking about it. "Oh, now that you mention it, marriage is a fabulous idea. We'll do that tomorrow." And obviously they mean well, I know I know.
Now that we've been married for just about six months we're constantly hearing "whenaregoingtohaveababy" over and over and over again and I wonder when simply being happy and comfortable in our skin and confident enough to make the best decisions we can make for ourselves, no matter how they may differ from the decisions others make, will be enough. I imagine it'll never be enough for everyone else, but as long as it's enough for you, that's something.
And I too agree with Jonna. A baby is the biggest thing you'll ever do. If you're ready for one, enjoy the beauty of that. And maybe enjoy it over a chocolate cake of your choosing.
You two frigging rock and are living proof that, conventions bedamned, two people who are meant to be together will be together. And make babies. And eat cake. So congratulations on your not-yet-maybe-who-knows marital status and may you live happily ever after!
Bravo! And, ditto. I know you and Simon will do just the right thing for your relationship.
My pet plan for awhile was to wait until I was 8 months pregnant, find a large white dress for me, a shotgun for my father, and have a hell of a lot of fun with the wedding photos.
having helped about five people with their weddings from invite to photo album and video (i do graphic design with a side of photography and a splash of videography), i have to say i've always thought weddings were more of a pain than they're worth, and that eloping (whether going to las vegas or simply going to the justice of the peace in san francisco) was the way to go. . .
'cuz i mean think about it, a cheap wedding is still about $10,000. . . if you elope you can spend that *entire* chunk o' drachmas on one badass honeymoon. . . like on that yearlong trip living out of your backpacks in an exotic locale you've always wanted to do!. . . i know that when i lived in mexico and central america for a year i did it on about $5,000, and i was kind of living it up. . . of course i wasn't a homeowner. . .
I second everything above. However, I will add that a wedding is just a big excuse to get all your favorite people together and throw an awesome party.
Even though I am now divorced (only somewhat easily...)I will always remember my wedding as one of the best moments in my life, simply because everyone I loved was in one place at one time. So while the order of baby and marriage doesn't matter one whit, I would recommend the actual construction of some sort of informal/formal ceremony to celebrate your commitment, just because it's damn fun! Oh, and just because I like to tell people this to make them jealous--I had 7 different kinds of pie and cake at my wedding. IT WAS AWESOME! So why limit yourself to just chocolate?
While I'm at it, very sorry to hear about your miscarriage. I'm looking forward to being along for the ride while you and Simon head towards parenthood. But in the meantime--more pictures of the cats, please! Esp. of little nonuts in a dress---so stinkin' cute!
I just want you to enjoy the trip you're on!! (and I know you do/will)
how great that there are two (!) big exciting things (baby! wedding!) that you can't wait to do, and that the only tricky part is figuring out which first. i say screw the detractors, and soak up the luck of being ready and able to approach two big milestones. baby or wedding first, both will be fantastic, no doubt.
yep, that my (rather pollyanna, but sincere) take. huzzah!
Far be it from me to call my own wisdom in to question (though it would hardly be the first time)...but, I'd kinda prefer it if everyone were married before reproducing.
I have no idea the source for Simon's "lukewarmness" regarding marriage. From all you write, I can't believe it's about the commitment.
I do fear that at times the general population underestimates the commitment involved in becoming a parent. Fifty percent or more of everyone in this country that marries ends up divorcing. One hundred percent of everyone that reproduces remains a parent for the rest of their lives...the tragic shame is that so many of those folks live their lives as if they've divorced their kids.
All of this unwise blather is to say that, by comparison, the idea of commiting to a lifetime of parenting should be infinitely more daunting than commiting to a mate.
Forgive me my rant Leah...(I think) I'm old enough to be your father, and my overdeveloped paternal insticts get the better of me now and again.
I got married when I was six months pregnant, after not having planned on getting married at all. Suddenly it seemed important to me. So we eloped.
(I think between my husband and I we had the same relationship histories as you and Simon.)
And so far it seems to be working out just fine ;-)
iamnot--See, that's just the point; we actually agree with each other at the heart of the matter. Having a child is a way bigger committment than getting married, and that's why the marriage seems less important to me now. In saying "I want to have a child with you," we're saying, "I want to be in your life forever, come hell or high water." Marriage, on the other hand--despite our best intentions--is not always as forever as we think it's going to be. Simon's issue with marriage is not that it's too daunting, but actually the opposite--that it isn't exactly what it's supposed to be and, therefore, kind of a hollow gesture. Obviously, marriage means more to people who are religious, but for us, the commitment to each other was made long ago, so the only thing left to do is make it legal and recognized by the government. At this point, as srt said, having a wedding for us would mostly be about throwing a kick-ass party.
I'm glad to hear that Leah.
I would tend to disagree with Simon on that one point though. Marriage is only a hollow gesture if the parties to it allow it to be...are willing for it to be hollow.
My own marriage has degraded to that point in all matters except our mutual commitment to our children. Naturally, I blame her, but honestly, there are no innocent parties in troubled relationships.
In any case, you have my heart-felt wishes for a wonderful life, however you go about it.
I don't think I have ever commented but since a friend is in the exact same position, it couldn't hurt. She and her now fiance were dating and living together when surprise here comes their darling daughter. She had just (like literally just) gotten a divorce and even though a baby was on the way, she had no desire to walk down the aisle anytime soon. Now almost 2 years later, with a house and a toddler, they just got engaged. And they couldn't be happier. They figured out how to be parents first and I can see that it was a great decision for them. I am all in favor of 2 parents that love each other enough to have children, whether they are married or not should be a personal choice.
Well said. As long as you are committed that's all that really matters. The boy and I have been together for eight years, living together for 5 and a half. According to our parents, we're as good as married anyway. I too think the wedding is just an excuse to throw a huge party with friends and family. (and also an excuse to wear the pretty white and blue dress I have my eye on.) So whatever order works for you. As long as there's love, what's the problem??
Even is you're 50 when you get married, the internet shall not rest until we get to see you in a beautiful wedding gown!
I am so very happy for you both. You know this. And that's really all I've got.
Good lord, this might be the most useless comment ever, but I mean it. So there.
For me getting married was a public declaration of our commitment in front of family and friends. Sort of a ritual of telling those who love you and who you love that YOU love your dude and or lady. It was nice to have a record of our public commitment OK WEDDING, but if I was doing it now, it would be simple, lots of cake for certain, some nice photos, and a big tongue kiss in front of friends and family. The order isn't such an issue for me now that i am old and almost 40 (so my mom reminds me).
I love you two. It would be cool to celebrate that you have decided to live your life as lovers and parents.
xo
Amanda--Would it count if I dressed as a pregnant bride for Halloween?
I s'pose. :)
Much like Simon I am lukewarm about marriage. Also much like Simon, though, I am a people-pleaser, and since it seems the bf likes the idea of marriage, and our parents would die if we did the baby thing before the marriage thing, we'll probably end up doing it in that order. BUT I totally feel you on the "what matters is that we're already committed" bit. That's great and I wish you two all the best.
The main (only?) reason we got married 8 and a half years ago was because we lived in different countries, and it just made it easier to live together. We would still be together and doing the same as you - trying to have babies right now - whether we were married or not. Of course that'd be more difficult if we lived in different countries, so it is working out for us ok!
I am just happy for you guys that you are...happy. And committed to each other. And working on making what is bound to be a BEAUTIFUL baby.
That being said, I eagerly await my invitation to the kick-ass party, be it next year or twenty years from now :)
I kind of feel like you're almost trying to convince yourself that you're okay with not getting married first. I could be reading into this, but this does NOT match up with what you told us many, many times before. Are you settling because you want the baby and he's willing to make the baby which is a LIFETIME commitment but he won’t make the commitment so that you're legally his wife?
Personally for me if there are no kids then marriage isn't an issue. If you have kids from previous relationships and then meet marriage isn't an issue. But when you plan on them, or get pregnant while dating then it is an issue.
Call me old fashion, but I know these things matter to children. Besides that I’m a mom, and a once single divorced mother, and a woman who volunteers with big sisters—it matters tremendously to the children that their parents are married. But I could be wrong..what do I know?
If you're both ready to make the committments (marriage and babies) then I don't think the order's that important. What matters is that both people are on the same wavelength about what they want from the rest of their lives. And it sounds like you are. (Go find a broom closet!)
And weddings are stressful and way too expensive (although we spent only £4000 on ours), but being married is special and does mean something to me - but like other people here (hello Angella & Amanda), I know that you'll find the right time for your own - whenever that is.
Life ain't simple. You just have to do what makes you happy, the opinions of others be damned.
Rock on, lady. You do what suits you and we'll all happily be along for the ride.
Well, if you guys lived here in Sweden you would have been pretty typical in your order of doing things. I recently read some statistics that the average Swedish couple gets married three years after they had their first baby (and a lot of couples with children never get married and live happily ever after anyway). As a divorced mum I agree that starting a family is way bigger commitment than marriage. Even if our marriage ended (on friendly terms) we are still just as devoted to our family and raising our children and that truly is the biggest commitment one could ever make.
I HEAR YOU. This is not a black-and-white, cut-and-dried, cookie-cutter world, and there is absolutely nothing wrong with doing things in your own way and in your own time.
I understand your people-pleasing struggle in all of this. I'm dreading the day I tell my very Catholic parents that we will not be baptizing whatever kids we're lucky enough to have. Their reaction will be somewhere between PANDEMONIUM and HYSTERIA. I hate knowing that I will be hurting them, but it's the right choice for us.
L -
This post is so close to home, you don't even know. (Well, of course you don't know, because you don't read me. HAH!) But it really did sink an arrow or two into my e-chest.
Thanks!
I'm so confused. Maybe it's time I went on a second honeymoon.
Michele--I get what you're saying, but it's not a committment issue, not at all. There are elements to our story that haven't been aired on this website, and they would help explain all that. If I were asking for advice, I would definitely include all relevant details so people could make informed judgements about our situation, but since I'm not asking for advice or judgement--just sharing where my mind is these days--I don't feel like I need to "make a case" for what we decide works best for us.
Also, I understand why children would want their parents to be married, but I suspect that the issue usually has more to do with them being together (i.e., living in the same house, in a relationship with each other, not divorced) than married (i.e., legally bound). Our plan is to stay together after the birth of our children, just like most legally married couples plan to do.
That said, you're right, my thoughts on the subject HAVE changed. No shame in that.
You are already a family, you're right. No piece of paper or baby will change that. Besides, simple and conventional are overrated.
Practical advice? If a wedding is not your cup of tea, don't have one. Have a party afterward, but only if you want. This is all about you (and Simon and the cats).
But if you get married, what will random strangers on the internet criticize you about?
I was brought up in this family where all I heard of was 1st u get married, then you have a baby.
Guess what? None of my cousins (all guys) did that the right way... my grandma's way. they got they gfs pregnant, then they moved in together, then the baby was born, and then... just then, they got married.
My brother has been w/ my SIL for 11 years. They're not married. They live 2gether. They have 2 beautiful children.
Sometimes having all that paperwork and shit just ruin things.
Dont pay attention to what other says, and just do what YOU think it's best for you and him.
I got married in 2002, amid much fanfare, a wedding that kept growing in size and importance, and the solid belief that I had a real commitment. My husband and I had talked about all the important stuff -- kids, finances, etc. -- and we were ready. And then in 2003 my gynecologist told me my fertility was ebbing more quickly than most women's my age, so I'd better step it up. I reported to my husband that our 5-year baby plan would need to be stepped up. And somehow, having to hurry made him realize he wasn't ready for any of it. So we are now divorced. So, yes, that baby thing *is* a much bigger, and in many ways more solid, commitment. Best of luck however it goes! (That said, I agree with srt -- my wedding was an awesome party. Swim-up bar, tuxes and swimsuits, getting mooned by my uncle.. well, that part wasn't so awesome. ;) )
I'm late commenting here, but ditto to all the positive comments! This post was brilliant and thoughtful and so well-written (as always). Thankyou :)